Spirit vs function - Guild Wars Forums

Biostem · Dec 02, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I was just pondering over a few skills and it kind of bothered me how I've seen skills used for their effect as opposed to their intent. For instance, having a party member intentionally get killed so as to make use of a skill that triggers only upon death of a teammate, or letting friendly NPCs die to provide corpses for necro summons.

Now, I'm in no way arguing against the effectiveness of such tactics, since they obviously work, but rather the 'spirit' of such things. How do you keep such "save your ass" skills from becoming a staple of a build, and/or should anything be done? For instance, should there be a steeper penalty for "allowing" yourself to be defeated? Should team members' corpses not be exploitable? Should all just be left alone?

And, just for the record, not only do I do PvE w/ just H/H about 99% of the time, but I have used such tactics w/ my heroes in the past, so I'm not claiming innocence on this matter. Thank you.

Antheus · Dec 02, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

The original minion factory.

2x Saccer, rezmer, MM.

Although I fail to understand the question. Is this about ethics or something?

As for more recent examples, there's the Duncan build.

Biostem · Dec 02, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

The original minion factory.

2x Saccer, rezmer, MM.

Although I fail to understand the question. Is this about ethics or something?

As for more recent examples, there's the Duncan build.

My question, or critique, is whether or not something should be done to keep things w/in their intended purpose. For instance, should "I will avenge you" fail to work if a team member lets themselves get killed? It sort of goes back to the nerf where pets no longer leave exploitable corpses - most likely in response to something similar to what I originally talked about...

Fury Incarnate · Dec 02, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Pets no longer leave corpses because one of the builds that made use of that feature was simply too powerful and unbalanced, not because it went against the "spirit" of any given skill. Personally I like the fact that skills can be used in ways that they weren't "intended" for - it makes the game fun and interesting to watch people invent ingenious builds based on aspects of skills that aren't necessarily obvious. (The quintessential example being the 55 monk)

BTW, shouldn't this be in The Riverside Inn? It's not really a gameplay question.

Antheus · Dec 02, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

My question, or critique, is whether or not something should be done to keep things w/in their intended purpose. For instance, should "I will avenge you" fail to work if a team member lets themselves get killed? It sort of goes back to the nerf where pets no longer leave exploitable corpses - most likely in response to something similar to what I originally talked about...

IWAY's intended purpose is to trigger on dead party members.

It's also impossible to tell how "someone let themselves get killed". If you have a stupid wammo that runs outside of healing - what now?

I really don't know. Sounds like you found one of the many uses for saccing, and now worry you've discovered some grave exploit. It's one of the core mechanics in GW.

The removal of pet corpses has nothing to do with it.

Crom The Pale · Dec 02, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Creativity should not be looked upon as something that needs to be nerfed or punished.

However there is a limit to creative use of skills whereby they are being abused, old examples of this were minion armrys and spirit spaming. They took steps to stop these, limiting Necros to 10max minions and one of each type of spirit per party.

There are some unfortunate effects however when they find a skill that is balanced when used by a single partymember but becomes unbalanced when multiple party members make use of it. Ursan Blessing is one such skill. A single party member with this skill will not have an extreme effect upon any quest/dungeon or mission, however if 6 party members have it the effect is massively extreme. The question is how do you fix one without destroying the other?

gremlin · Dec 02, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

The op is quite correct it is a stupid concept of deliberatly setting out to die to gain an effect.

Except in a few circumstances ie the heroic sacrifice to win the battle etc etc.

In reality talking someone into dying to gain something even though they know its not permanent is an unlikely event.
But gw players are seperated from the pain and reality of their characters so its inevitable that players would behave in this way.

It would also happen in our world if it could be done, you wouldnt get many vollunteers but I am sure many army commanders would blow up their own men to win an engagement especially if they got them back a few minutes later.

Quaker · Dec 02, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

My question, or critique, is whether or not something should be done to keep things w/in their intended purpose.

How do you know what the "intended" purpose is?

Antheus · Dec 02, 2007, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

It would also happen in our world if it could be done, you wouldnt get many vollunteers but I am sure many army commanders would blow up their own men

Um.... Watch CNN or the news station of choice.

Suicide is and has always been a method of warfare. Two common terms are suicide bombers and kamikaze. And no, there wasn't, and still isn't a shortage of volunteers for such acts.

Sneaky Mitch · Dec 03, 2007, 06:40 AM // 06:40

yeah damn all those saccing kamikaze with 2 second repawn a nice MM near by...

Dec 02, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40	#1
Biostem Jungle Guide Join Date: Oct 2007	Spirit vs function I was just pondering over a few skills and it kind of bothered me how I've seen skills used for their effect as opposed to their intent. For instance, having a party member intentionally get killed so as to make use of a skill that triggers only upon death of a teammate, or letting friendly NPCs die to provide corpses for necro summons. Now, I'm in no way arguing against the effectiveness of such tactics, since they obviously work, but rather the 'spirit' of such things. How do you keep such "save your ass" skills from becoming a staple of a build, and/or should anything be done? For instance, should there be a steeper penalty for "allowing" yourself to be defeated? Should team members' corpses not be exploitable? Should all just be left alone? And, just for the record, not only do I do PvE w/ just H/H about 99% of the time, but I have used such tactics w/ my heroes in the past, so I'm not claiming innocence on this matter. Thank you.

Dec 02, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24	#2
Antheus Forge Runner Join Date: Jan 2006	The original minion factory. 2x Saccer, rezmer, MM. Although I fail to understand the question. Is this about ethics or something? As for more recent examples, there's the Duncan build.

Dec 02, 2007, 03:11 AM // 03:11	#4
Fury Incarnate Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Connecticut, USA Profession: R/	Pets no longer leave corpses because one of the builds that made use of that feature was simply too powerful and unbalanced, not because it went against the "spirit" of any given skill. Personally I like the fact that skills can be used in ways that they weren't "intended" for - it makes the game fun and interesting to watch people invent ingenious builds based on aspects of skills that aren't necessarily obvious. (The quintessential example being the 55 monk) BTW, shouldn't this be in The Riverside Inn? It's not really a gameplay question.

Dec 02, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13	#6
Crom The Pale Furnace Stoker Join Date: Nov 2006 Guild: Ageis Ascending Profession: W/	Creativity should not be looked upon as something that needs to be nerfed or punished. However there is a limit to creative use of skills whereby they are being abused, old examples of this were minion armrys and spirit spaming. They took steps to stop these, limiting Necros to 10max minions and one of each type of spirit per party. There are some unfortunate effects however when they find a skill that is balanced when used by a single partymember but becomes unbalanced when multiple party members make use of it. Ursan Blessing is one such skill. A single party member with this skill will not have an extreme effect upon any quest/dungeon or mission, however if 6 party members have it the effect is massively extreme. The question is how do you fix one without destroying the other?

Dec 02, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03	#7
gremlin Furnace Stoker Join Date: Oct 2006 Guild: GWAR Profession: Me/Mo	The op is quite correct it is a stupid concept of deliberatly setting out to die to gain an effect. Except in a few circumstances ie the heroic sacrifice to win the battle etc etc. In reality talking someone into dying to gain something even though they know its not permanent is an unlikely event. But gw players are seperated from the pain and reality of their characters so its inevitable that players would behave in this way. It would also happen in our world if it could be done, you wouldnt get many vollunteers but I am sure many army commanders would blow up their own men to win an engagement especially if they got them back a few minutes later.

Dec 03, 2007, 06:40 AM // 06:40	#10
Sneaky Mitch Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Feb 2007	yeah damn all those saccing kamikaze with 2 second repawn a nice MM near by...